This transcript of the Street Speak podcast was edited for brevity and clarity. Listen to this episode in its entirety at streetsheet.org/street-speak-podcast.
We welcome Apple Cronk along with her partner, Josh Donohoe, who are co-plaintiffs in the Coalition on Homelessness’s lawsuit against the City of San Francisco for their practices in encampment sweeps and the destruction of property belonging to unsheltered residents. That case was recently resolved and signed by Mayor Daniel Lurie on Friday, September 19. Thank you, Apple and Josh, for joining us today and just let them know, Apple is also a mother, artist and activist in her community, and so how are you guys doing today?
Apple: Good. We’re good. Thank you so much for having us.
Great. OK, just to start off, overall, how do you feel about the settlement that the City has reached with you?
A: I’m very relieved that we that we got what we did when it came to the settlement, and the City is now going to follow its own “bag and tag” policy that it should have been following a long time ago. It’s been a long time coming, and it was a lot of stress going through this entire litigation process. You know what happened in Grants Pass set us back a little bit, but and we wanted more. We really wanted them to stop sweeps entirely, because all they could all they do is cause harm, create more instability, and set people back and keep them in homelessness. So we were hoping that the City would wake up and realize that what they need to do is just offer more affordable places to live and treat people with compassion and understanding what they have to do on the street, which is survive. But despite that, we’re happy that now, for five years, they’re going to be monitored, and our lawyers are going to make sure that they follow their “bag and tag” policies and that they give people notice before they handle their belongings.
OK, and and in the meantime, what changes in the City’s behavior, in their Street operations, have you observed since the lawsuit was filed?
A: Unfortunately, we didn’t see a lot of change. Since the lawsuit was filed, they were still conducting sweeps, and they were very aggressive, just as aggressive they were enforcing sit-lie laws, the preliminary injunction that happened December 2022 by Judge (Donna) Ryu, said that they couldn’t enforce the sit-lie in my laws, and that helped a little bit. But since then, they they have been and they’ve been very, very aggressive, and we’re hoping now that the settlement is finalized, that might change a little bit. But we have not been on the street for about how long have we had housing? (Josh: About a year now.) So we haven’t really seen it firsthand. I’m constantly thinking about my people that are still out there, and I know that they’re still experiencing sweeps and property destruction.
So tell us about how your lives have changed since that time.
A: So I had, I had a child, I have a two-year old now, and we were able to get subsidized housing through a permanent housing program, which is really, really nice. Josh is a full-time sheet metal worker.
Josh: I ended up getting into a Local 104 Sheet Metal Workers Union through a construction training program offered by One Treasure Island, which is a sister program to City Build. So, yeah, that was after treatment.
A: So we both went to residential treatment, and since then, I have become an advocate for harm reduction services, because low-barrier services are really what saved my life and my child’s life, while I was on the street experiencing that kind of destruction and got me into care. I mean, I would have ran for the hills if people didn’t treat me with dignity and respect.
J: Same services and the same people who helped Apple actually, you know, they didn’t have to help me either, but they did. I’m not a woman or a child, but I am a person. But then the public health nurse, specifically, who helped and was working with Apple, actually helped me get into treatment and helped me get over the first couple of hurdles that I went through. You know, not. I was looking for every reason, like Apple said, to run for the hills, and they, you know, made it a lot easier knowing I had somebody to rely on emotionally and physically if it needed to be.
You mentioned that you were able to get treatment (and) food through City-sponsored programs, I believe.
A: So it started out with prenatal stabilization for me. We lost everything we had, to a rainstorm after multiple sweeps and property destruction, and, you know, barely having anything. Then we got into a (shelter-in-place) hotel. So while I was at a SIP hotel, I made a prenatal appointment, which I didn’t show up at, but then my prenatal nurse called me, asked me what was going on. At that time, I was super sick, and I needed help. She came to me, she actually met me where I was at, took me to the hospital, and gave me the resources I needed, which was medically assisted treatment to stop using, which I was doing to survive while I was outside for so long. Through a City-sponsored subsidy program, we ended up eventually being able to get housing.
In your estimation, do you think that San Francisco has the resources to house everyone if they prioritize housing all residents over things like policing or the harassment of unhoused folks?
A: Absolutely, I think they’re putting so much money and so many resources into the wrong, into forced treatment, into temporary shelter, things that just put people through the revolving door and back into homelessness. I think if they were to, it’s actually much, much cheaper and affordable to put resources into residential, permanent housing and things like housing subsidies than it is to fund temporary shelters for people and families.
J: I want to mention also, I was scheduled to go into treatment the day that Apple did and the day that my daughter was released from the NICU. I didn’t go because I wasn’t ready. I had a meltdown, and I spazzed, ran away, and I stayed out there for another month until I got arrested. Then during that whole situation, I had kind of like a moment of clarity, and then, and then I met with the public health nurse who helped Apple. She came to me and it was just like, “hey, if you like, you can do this, you know?” Then, of course, I had support from my family. But I say all that because my experience, and Apple’s experience, and a lot of the experiences I’ve heard, in my almost two and a half years of sobriety and clean time has been that when it’s forced, when, when somebody else expects me to do it, I don’t want to do it. I’m not going to. I’m not ready to, even when it’s for the best and, you know, even if it’s what I want, I’m not going to want it at the moment. Basic necessities needed to be given to me, even to be able to cognitively make the decision that I want to actually do something with this, and that moment of reprieve was only because I had food and water in a horrible situation, being in jail. But at least I had the ability to actually make a decision that wasn’t based on drugs at that point. And I think to (Apple’s) point, yes, I think that if housing was more focused on instead of the revolving door, then it might be a little while, but at least people having their basic necessities made and and taken care of. They’re not, as Apple saying earlier, they’re not surviving anymore. They’re actually they might actually make a decision to thrive and do something different with their life.
A: It opens opportunities.
Tell us what you think the barriers are to housing everyone and just imagine, what if those barriers didn’t exist?
A: A lot of times, the what is offered to people when they’re outside on the street doesn’t match what they need. For instance, they could be offered a navigation center that doesn’t meet their disability needs, things of that sort. Also, it’s not a good place to be. There’s community out there on the street. You feel safe like when you have an established community and people that you can at least somewhat trust outside, you’re going to want to stay there, rather than go into a navigation center or a shelter where you don’t trust anybody, and everybody’s looking for an opportunity to take your shit and to use you, and people get assaulted in those places behind closed doors when there’s supposed to be people there that are making sure that stuff doesn’t happen. It’s crazy. I think that’s a huge barrier. I think for me, I stayed outside because I was institutionalized. I had been running. I was in foster care, and they were putting me in placement after placement, and it was getting more and more locked. And I just wanted freedom. I wanted my autonomy. So I stayed outside because I didn’t trust anybody. I didn’t want to be held down. Those bars are real.
J: I think also another barrier was, at least for me, was knowledge and access in the sense of, like, I knew that there was a procedure, but I didn’t know what that procedure was, and a lot of times it was too far for me to get to, you know? I mean, it would take me two days to get three blocks down the street sometimes, you know, it’s just what it was. When you’re when you’re surviving and trying to do what you need to do to make ends meet, the day goes by very quickly, and by the time you realize, “Oh, I was supposed to go down there to fill out paperwork,” or “I was supposed to go get my fourth ID of the year.” You know, it just doesn’t happen there. There are a lot of steps that need to be taken, and they’re not clearly defined. They’re in a language that is very hard to decipher. Then there’s trust issues, right? Like, I have to go in and trust that this person that I’ve never met before is working on my behalf when they’re meeting me with, less than compassion, if that makes any sense, almost animosity. Like, I’m just another person, who’s going to screw this up. And so, of course, I become just another person who’s going to screw this up or not even try, because it’s just a fear of failure. You know, these are all different barriers, right? And maybe self-inflicted, but at the same time, not because they’re system-inflicted at the same, you know, and many at a certain level. So what would happen if those were removed? If I could trust every City official that came by, let’s say if it was accessible, in the sense of “Hey, you can trust me, let me gain your trust,” and gave me an option versus a mandate of what I could do. and had no judgment, if I said, “you know what, not today, maybe come back next week” or “come back maybe, or just don’t come back, because I’m not feeling you right now,” right? It’s not something that I like. I stayed homeless because I feared judgment. And I feared a lot of things, but judgment was a big, big one. And so another person who doesn’t do the things I do, who doesn’t look the way I look, and doesn’t doesn’t live the way I live, coming and telling me how I should do and how I should live and how I should look immediately puts me into a situation where I don’t want to trust them and nor do I want to do anything that they want for me. How could you have the authority to say that I should be doing this, you know? Those are all different barriers that pop up in my head, and if they’re if they were gone, I don’t know how, exactly how you would get there, but there’s definitely a trust factor, it’s a big piece. Gaining trust, having people who have lived experience doing it, you know, and actually meeting, how we went through. We only made the leap because there were people in our corner who were meeting us, where we were not asked to jump through hoops.
This is a very speculative kind of question: What is your vision for a safe, restorative transition from homelessness to home, and this could be for yourselves or for all residents of San Francisco?
A: Well, I think that’s pretty broad. Everybody’s path is very different. Everybody’s situation is very different. And the reasons that they stay on the street, either they don’t want to or they can’t get back inside, are different. Like, people who live in RVs, for instance, a lot of some, you know, some of them don’t want to be there, but other people like living in an RV, that’s the best thing they’ve had in a long time for some of them, and it’s a home. Just because it’s got wheels and you can move it around, doesn’t mean it’s not a home. So, like, it starts out with defying what being unhoused versus being housed is and what the expectations are. I don’t think anybody should be expected to live in a certain environment, especially if they’re not comfortable with it. Some people just don’t feel comfortable being indoors, you know? And I think that’s OK, but I think everybody’s path is different, and they need to be treated with dignity and respect and understanding. It doesn’t happen overnight. People don’t get off the street overnight.
But they need to be tolerated and treated with respect as human beings and have a right to property and have a right to their basic needs being met. You know, we’re all San Francisco residents, and we shouldn’t just be treated like we’re a burden or we’re getting in the way of the people who you know—the other people who live in the City and business owners and stuff look down upon the people that are outside, and they don’t want them around, and they don’t want them, you know, sitting in front of their doors and stuff like that. But if you want an equitable San Francisco, you have to own that you have to have respect for the other people that are out there.
J: So what worked for me, like it’s been mentioned before, being met where I was at, that compassion piece and if there’s room for people to move into, some kind of shelter that is not just stuffing them into a corner in an old, dusty building. It’s actually like there’s a community there of people who have been through what they’re going through. I think also, there tends to be this hiccup or a hindrance when it comes to people’s stuff being taken into the new place, or into their home, you know they’re only, you’re only given two trash bags or something like that. Right now, if I look around in our apartment, we have, I mean, a sofa that doesn’t fit in a trash bag, right? I mean, how my work stuff doesn’t fit in one trash bag. I feel like that concept should be broadened, and if people were given, like, a storage unit, on top of having housing or something like it, I think that would make it easier. But to go back to your question, obviously, there needs to be barriers, right? People need to be safe, and there’s, like, you know, certain things that need to be upheld. But my experience has been, the more willing somebody is to accommodate me, the less of a burden I want to be, then the more willing I am to work with that person.
In the lawsuit that was filed, Josh details a specific incident where a City worker had threatened to break his jaw during a sweep over at 13th and Folsom streets, and that was just one example. Have such incidents happened to you before or since? And also, would you say this is a common hazard that your fellow unhoused folk face in San Francisco?
J: Most definitely. Since that incident, it has happened a couple of times where a City worker would get aggressive with me, because I would defend other people’s tents and defend their property. I’ve had it become a racial thing, which is very unsettling and upsetting, like being called a “white boy,” like literally being told, “what are you going to do, white boy” kind of thing, and it’s like four or five guys against me. I’m standing my ground there. And this is like in the middle of the day, not even hush on the night of it. It’s definitely something that I have seen other people who are unhoused experience. I have jumped in the middle of aggressive behavior, because it was not just my dignity that was taxed or called into question, but just my basic human rights, my right to exist somewhere, was called into question. I would get into arguments all the time just because if you ask me something that’s impossible to do, like “pick up every little thing I have in 10 minutes, or I’m going to start, you know, spraying you with chemicals”. It’s like, “You got to give me some more time.” And I always started off respectfully. or, the other people experience go through this, are pretty respectful about it at first. “Can we get some more time?” Or “can, can you not do that?” In the lawsuit, it was specifically like, “Hey, can you get away from my stuff?” I had started noticing that they were looking to snag some of it. They were just kind of picking off when they thought that we weren’t looking, and I confronted them. And it’s like, “Hey, you know, that’s trash over there, this isn’t, and you’re here to pick up trash. So can you focus on that? I’ll even go out of my way to throw it to help you, I’ll take the trash for you to your truck so you don’t have to worry about it, you know?” I said something like that. And then it became, “Hey, I’m gonna break your jaw.” Unnecessary aggressive behavior out of nowhere.
A: Yeah, I want to say something too, and I want to preface it by saying that not every City worker that I ever encountered was a bad person or an aggressive person. There were guys out there that did not obviously want to be doing what they were doing, and they didn’t like the fact that they were confronting unhoused people the way that they were. They stayed out of it as much as possible. It was just obvious that some were really unhappy with how their coworkers were treating us. But I’ve seen people tear belongings out of people’s hands. I’ve seen a lady get shoved when she was trying to push them away from picking up some of her stuff because they were trying to throw away something that was in front of her tent, and they pulled it out of her hands. It’s just crazy, like they threw away one of our good friends’ (stuff) that we were camping next to for a long time. He was at a medical appointment, and (Department of Public Works) workers came and they decided that his property was abandoned because the person that was watching his stuff ended up getting shelter. They went to throw away everything that he had, and I was arguing with them along with SFPD, saying, “No, I’m here watching my friend’s stuff. He’s going to come back.” And while I was in the midst of arguing with SFPD about it, and I was being very diplomatic and very calm about it, hoping that they would get on my side. DPW workers took that opportunity to just start throwing things away, and then I tried to stop them. I tried to get on the truck. And that’s when SFPD got really aggressive, and they came in, and they were like, “We’re going to detain you right now, if you try to get on the truck and you try to stop them.” So there was nothing I could do. When he came back, he just started sobbing. It was the saddest thing. And I felt I felt so bad because I felt like I failed in defending him.
Josh, you touched upon human rights here, and I guess among them is housing considered a human right? Well, not just is considered, should be considered a human right. What sort of policies would you like to see in place to ensure that everybody has the right to housing?
J: Well, and me, personally, I think the sit-lie law needs to go away. I think it’s ridiculous that you can’t sit down wherever you want in San Francisco. I’ve always thought that that was ridiculous. If I get tired from walking, I cannot sit down on the sidewalk and just chill for a minute.
A: Can I say something? I want to bring up Trump’s executive order here “ending crime and disorder on American streets.” I think it’s a huge problem that they’re expecting people to be completely free of use of drugs in order to obtain shelter, because I think it takes shelter in order for people to stop using and just get access to the things that they need, medical care, treating themselves, going to appointments and things like that, just getting a shower. And if you expect people to stop doing what they’re doing to survive, and to keep themselves from freezing in the middle of the night when they have no place to go, or to keep themselves from staying awake so that they don’t get raped or they don’t get their stuff stolen? That’s not going to happen when you’re outside. You have to give people a chance to recover in safety with a roof over their head, with heat, with water, things like that. So I think it’s very important that housing comes first.
Now that you are stably housed, tell us about some of the things that you hope to do.
A: So I have been getting into some policy work and social justice. I was a part of the Social Justice Academy at Glide SF. It’s funny because I was just listening to Street Speak with your episode with Laura Guzman on harm reduction, and I had the honor of speaking with Laura Guzman on a panel for Overdose Awareness Day at Glide. So I’m trying to get into that kind of work and just just advocating for the services that saved my life, that I see save other people’s lives, and just really keep our City safe. And, yeah, treat people with compassion and dignity, whether they’re outside or not. It’s very important. So, yeah, stuff like that, (as) I said, we’re raising our daughter. She’s doing great.
J: Yeah, I want to, I want to mention something that just popped in my head. We’re still the same people. All the stuff that we’ve been through, it’s stuff to put in our toolbox, if you will, to better handle the stresses of the day. When we were unhoused, we would travel around the Bay Area and go sightseeing and stuff like that. And that’s actually something that we still like to do. So my whole point of my point, we were achieving goals and doing things that we would like to when we were unhoused, maybe on a smaller scale, but like today, if we want to go for a drive or something, we can. Getting back in touch with family is a really big thing for me. And incorporating our daughter into my family and everything, you know, all these different things. Those are all coming true. I got a bucket list, right? Everybody’s got a bucket list. I want to go to freaking Nepal. I want to go hiking somewhere, in some, some extravagant place. Now we have stability. So it’s easier, (it’s) possible. We have an income. So like, you know, money’s not as much as I like, how am I going to afford going outside of what I can get on BART?
A: I feel like we were kind of held captive by the streets when we were outside, especially when we were getting our stuff constantly taken from us and constantly having to safeguard just what little we had. So it’s really nice not to have to worry about those things anymore. I constantly think about my people that are outside, and it sucks anytime the weather gets cold, I’m just like, damn. I mean, I’m glad I’m not out there, but at the same time, it’s almost like survivor’s guilt, you know? I I think about that, and I just want things to change for everybody, so that everybody has the opportunity to just live their lives and do what they want to do, and have some freedom and not be held hostage by just having to survive one way.
J: One more thing, too, is something that we both like to do is help people see the light go on and the light spark up in somebody’s eyes because you give them something, it’s something that we want to bring to our daughter. We’ve talked about going out and volunteering at different things, immersing her in the culture that is helping people and helping those who don’t necessarily have as much, physically, as you might have, but expressing emotionally (how) you care.
Moving on: What does the word belonging mean to you, and what could it feel like to belong in San Francisco? You just mentioned, like you have some of your civic and volunteer involvement.
A: Belonging, I think belonging is just regardless of who you are, you should have the the same opportunities as everybody else in San Francisco to be able to live life, to be able to have property, to be able to attend school and not be treated like a criminal when you walk inside a business or store just because of the way you look. I think it’s really important for people, especially people who are unhoused or people who are marginalized, to get their voices heard and to tell their stories and to have policymakers listen to them and actually do what they need. I think cultivating the understanding that if we want to change things in San Francisco, if we want to help people who are on the street and solve the homeless crisis or solve the fentanyl crisis, what we need to ask people is what it is that is going to help them. We need to hear from the people that are out there like living it.
A final question to close off, what would you like to say to a housed resident about your experience, so that they would understand things from your point of view?
A: First thing I would say to a housed resident is, it’s not fun being out there. Before, you judge somebody and you say that. I mean, I’ve heard, I’ve had difficult conversations with people that have these misconceptions, that people are all outside in their tents, having a good time with their friends. I’ve heard it described like “just doing whatever drugs they want” and “taking the City hostage.” I’ve heard people say stuff like that, and it’s just a terrible misconception. Nobody wants to live like that where they just have to. They don’t really feel like we’re residents. You talked about belonging. You don’t really feel like you belong even though you’re a resident of the City. You know, you don’t have the same rights as the rest of the people in the City, because nobody wants you around. That voice isn’t heard.
J: Yeah, yeah. Just so it’s interesting you ask this question, because I work with people who are housed, and some of them have never been unhoused and have never gone through the trials and tribulations that go with it. So I, you know, like Apple, I get into conversations with these people frequently. So I think to sum up most of the things that I’ve said to them, to somebody who I’ve never met before, is, you know, “Do I look normal? Do I sound normal? Does it seem like I have my life together?” Maybe, maybe not. So whatever your judgment on me is, I’m still a human being and my past, although it defines where I’ve been, it does not define who I am and who I choose to be today. Another thing is, I consistently think about the hell that I put my parents through. If you’re a housed person, you don’t think homelessness can affect you, think about how it could affect your kid or somebody else you love. Would you want them to go through the hell that people go through on a daily basis that they accept as normal? Would you want them to face death on a regular basis? Here’s the cold, hard truth: The people out there didn’t come from nowhere. They have a history. They have people who do care for them. They do have people who want them back, and to deny that person a way back is to deny a whole family from receiving a loved one back, and that would destroy me. I know that’s destroyed people I love and care for and who have cared for me for years, even through what I was going through. it’s it just because you can’t relate necessarily to somebody on the streets does not mean they are not human, and that does not mean that you can’t have the ability to gain a little bit little bit of compassion extend a helping hand, doesn’t have to be money. It doesn’t have to be a blanket. It could just be saying, “Hey, are you doing OK today?” It’s amazing how much, how far that goes, spending five minutes actually caring.
A: I think, I think people have no idea what, what somebody like you were talking about history, you have no idea what somebody has been through to put them out there. There are people who go through trauma. I went through a lot of trauma and a lot of things that pushed me out into the margins of society. I was just afraid all the time. I think people need to realize this, that homelessness itself is a circumstance, but the people out there are people, and they can come back from that, but they have to be treated like people. They have to be treated like human beings, not treated as disposable in order for that to work.
I just want to thank you, Apple and Josh, for sharing your story with our listeners. Do you have anything else that you would like to add that you haven’t had the chance to say or just or any words that you would like to reiterate before we close out?
A: Well, thank you so much for having us. I just want to thank the Coalition on Homelessness for all their work in protecting unhoused people and for helping us for all their work in protecting unhoused people and for helping us in this lawsuit. It’s amazing that we’ve come this far. It’s not perfect.
J: But it is a win.
A:Yeah, it is a win. And that was a lot of tireless work. I think now we can get to the point where we can monitor the City and hold them accountable for their actions and for their behaviors. Hopefully that’s going to give unhoused people a little bit of an easier time being out there, and everybody should have a right to property and be treated with respect and dignity.
